Sickened & Ashamed

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:05 pm

Although this has nothing to do with fishing, it is an appropriate follow up to my recent post about indiscriminent killing of fish by some irresponsible so called anglers at Dover.
A word of warning........ This link will show cruelty in graphic details.
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/dog.html

Maybe you would like to leave your views... I already left mine in the title of this post.
sad

Guest

I'm going to stick my kneck out and make it clear that I've always enjoyed meat - and have (on most occasions) taken pleasure from hunting some of it myself. Also, like many others on this site I do like to take fish home for the table. Whilst I'm not fundamentally against eating anything (yes even dogs - though they are not something I intend to try!) I was brought up to believe that you should show your next meal the respect and the compassion it is entitled to by doing the job quickly and cleanly and with the least possible suffering. It's little wonder people in these countries have so many nasty diseases - regardless of the cruelty aspect, their standards of animal husbandry are appalling!!

I'm sure my black friend on the left will be taking a lump out of the next Phillipino he bumps into.

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:32 pm

just shows you what forgin people are like sick,,b*****s!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:26 pm

hi, havnt looked at the link but can guess the content

i must agree that i have shot my tea and am now looking for somewhere to shoot again but it is important to hunt for the right reason and in the correct manner

only shoot what you are going to eat and kill the prey straight out in the best way possible, i could not just shoot for sport and will never do it!

hence i do not agree with fox hunting either but that will probably upset some people!!!!! but there we go

Guest

I think that there is a fundamental difference between hunting and what is going on here. The dogs in those photos have been kept in appalling conditions whereas the hunter will, as someone has already said, go for the quick and humane kill. Hunting is a primal instinct that cannot and should not be ignored or challenged. It is part of who we are as an animal life form and to ask us not to do it is like asking a Lion not to eat meat!

As for the dog butchers, anyone up for a little hunting trip to the phillipines? I feel a lesson in humanity is in order!

Guest

Hi
This raises some odd feelings inside me, because i love my pet Labrador too much to even consider eating her, but i will eat pork, beef etc. Surley, if we all went vegan, and not used any animals in anyway (no leather etc) then should i use lugworm, mackeral, ragworm, squid and other bait? I mean, it could be seen as slightly inhumane, ramming a sharp hook through it and feeding it to fish (or craps mostly in my case...). If i was to go anti animal usage in my life, i think it would pretty much ruin it. I do think that anything killed should be killed quickly and painlessly, and without too much distress (those dogs could sense they were going to be killed accourding to the link). Well, there you go, rant over. I'm probably wrong in my views, and someone will contradict me, but please bear in mind i'm only 14...
Happy New Year,
YoungRod

Guest

Whilst I don't condone cruelty to animals, we have got to accept that people in other countries eat animals that we regard as pets. As I write this post, I have behind me two guinea pigs, who in South America would be a couple of snacks. We in this country haven't always been very kind to our farm animals, but things now are much improved. Mrs. C gave up eating meat many years ago, but she is happy to eat the fish I bring home as she feels that they are caught and despatched in the most humane way possible. I eat meat and so do my kids. If the kids want to become veggies then it will be their decision. As far as trying to change the way that Koreans and others treat their animals I really believe it's an impossible task. The only thing is, we can all have a clear conscience about this so long as we don't buy or eat animal produce from any of these countries.

Guest

In France they eat the "cheval burger" made from horse meat, but we wouldn't dream of it.

Anyway, my point I suppose is that I am not going to get hung up on matters that I have no control over and cannot influence. Yes it's cruel sometimes, and yes it's sad, but that's life I'm afraid.

As long as make sure I do my utmost to be a responsible fisherman, that is all I can do.

Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:11 am

YoungRod wrote:

Hi
This raises some odd feelings inside me, because i love my pet Labrador too much to even consider eating her, but i will eat pork, beef etc. Surley, if we all went vegan, and not used any animals in anyway (no leather etc) then should i use lugworm, mackeral, ragworm, squid and other bait? I mean, it could be seen as slightly inhumane, ramming a sharp hook through it and feeding it to fish (or craps mostly in my case...). If i was to go anti animal usage in my life, i think it would pretty much ruin it. I do think that anything killed should be killed quickly and painlessly, and without too much distress (those dogs could sense they were going to be killed accourding to the link). Well, there you go, rant over. I'm probably wrong in my views, and someone will contradict me, but please bear in mind i'm only 14...
Happy New Year,
YoungRod

This is a very good and intelligent post from someone so young, and you make some very valid points which I'm sure others will ponder over.
What I saw on that site, was cruel and disgusting conditions for any living creature to be kept in.
The dogs were not just killed, but were tortured, starved and kept in filthy overcrowded cages before hand.
There is also a video clip showing so called civilised American soilders in Iraq, shooting and wounding a poor defensless dog.
They then preceeded to shoot the poor animal again and again because they did not kill it with the first shot.
You can hear them laughing and joking while they are doing it.

This senseless cruelty and killing is what sickens me. As Duncbooth5 has already pointed out, it is a human thing to kill. But most of us have learned to control this instinct and if we have to do it, then we do it with some sort of care and concern for what we are killing.

Guest

Just a thought chaps as I was perusing some of the posts I missed over Christmas- and I'm not having a pop at you Limey or you Dunc- but this is precisely the kind of post that should be moderated so perhaps rather than one person being responsible for moderation there might be a panel of moderators esp as Dunc is working long hours-

I personally have recommended the Sea-fishing website to youngsters taking up fishing beause it is a fishing website that is friendly informative and is talking about having a juniors section for the prospective East Coast club. Whilst i applaud and encourage free speech and debate about fishing and related matters we also need to be more responsible about some of the posts - some of the images on the link that has been posted on this topic are distressing but are clearly from Animal liberation sites with a political agenda and from gorefest sites including Ogrish which is a known site that airs very distressing and very real images and videos of a horrendous nature- I'm sure this wasn't known when the link was posted and I am not trying to be patronising here but it is a particularly sick site that examines in a very matter of fact way some of the thoroughly disgusting aspects of the depths to which humans can plummet. Admittedly the site warns you of the content before entering but this would not stop youngsters from potentially viewing a particularly horrible and potentially psychologically damaging and disturbing site.

yes if people want to find these kind of sites they can and will but I really dont think this site should make them easier to find

I would like this post to be noted and action taken to remove the original post which shows the web-addresses for what i as a fairly unsqueamish person consider to be pretty awful sites.

If anyone wants to come back to me please do so and I am happy to discuss in a grown up adult manner
Stuartdv

Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:07 am

I have noted your comments Stuartdv, but I'm afraid mate you missed the point I was making.
Having witnessed on a boat at Dover, what I can only describe as unnesecessary slaughter and cruelty to about twenty small fish by some mindless people. One of them just a boy of about 10..
I just wanted to show you and everyone who reads these posts that cruelty does exist, even in this country.

Yes this site is about fishing, but it is not just about catching fish or how to tie a knot on a line.
It is also about fishing with responsibility, not only for yourself and other anglers, but also the fish that you do take from the sea.

I don't believe you can hide things from people and make out that they don't exist. The painfull truth is, that they do......
Dogs or fish, the same set of rules apply..... There is no need for cruelty to either....
Maybey by showing youngsters, they will learn a lesson....
I personaly, think we all have a duty to teach youngsters the fundemental rules of reponsibility.
You may very well point out that it is the parents duty, you would be right.
But as you well know mate, some parents don't give a damn.......

As you rightly said the site does give a warning, just as I also gave a warning about the graphical content.
However it is possible, and quite easy to do, to monitor what content you allow your child to watch while on a computer.
If set correctly, your computer would not display that site.

And on a final point of order.......
If you have a problem with the way this forum is moderated or any of the posts. Then surely the correct proceedure to follow, would be for you take it up with the moderator via pm or email and not air it in public as you are surely doing here.

Guest

Gentlemen,

There is a very fine line, I believe, between real news and sensationalism. I accept the critisism Stuart that the post is disturbing but I also feel that these images have been available in the popular press and on primetime news programmes for so long that perhaps one more will make little difference to the subject. There have on occasion been posts that I have quietly asked people to remove because they are perhaps offensive or sexual in nature and should not be viewed by kids. My own view on the subject, for what its worth, is that if you shield your kids from this type image, they will grow up with a distorted view of how cruel the real world really can be. I, as a moderator, have to use my kids as the yard stick. Would I have an issue with my offspring seeing this? No I wouldn't and they have. Yes they found it upsetting but it created some very mature discussion from both the 9 and 11 year old on why these things happen and the politics around trying to stop it. I'd rather be the one to explain it to them properly than some snotty kid in the playground or worse, a young liberal teacher barely out of nappies themselves.

As for bringing this issue to the forum Limey, I have no issue with this. Through open and honest debate there can be solutions formed and an understanding gained of why people do the things they do. Frank discussion (and yes, terse or tense too) is no bad thing. People learn from it, people with no view on a subject have it brought to their attention and can make their decision in a more informed way. Think of it as an online debating club where the most persuasive argument carries the day and if I am critisised for my acts, errors or omissions then fair enough. I will not accept personal attacks but I am happy to put myself in the firing line-another lesson that I'm trying to teach my kids.

If by reading these posts or seeing those images, one kid goes off and is moved by this and takes action in adult life (whether it be for dogs or fish is irrelevant) then we will be able to be satisfied that we did make a difference.

Sorry that this is a bit long winded and I hope it makes the point.

By the way, in case this didn't come across, I get on very well with stuart and value his opinion. I also get on well with you as well Limey and value your opinion too. I think the most important lesson for the kids here is that you can disagree with your friends without having to fall out.

Duncan

Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:48 pm

As usual DB5 a good post and you did put your point over very well.

I never intended this to be a slanging match, and like you I do think sensible and adult debate is what it should be all about.

However, I did feel that complaints about the moderation of this site, and consequently about a fellow member of this site should not be aired in public, but taken up with the person concerned as a matter of courtesy.
I believe that to be the correct way to do things, and thus it avoids hostililities from people who may not necessary agree with that criticism.

I do believe I was one of the members whom you contacted and asked to remove a picture which you thought may be interpreted as sexual in nature.
I did as requested and I do not have a problem with this way of carrying out moderation of the site.

Again, I must stress that my comments to stuartdv was meant solely as constructive critisism, and not a personal attack on his integrity.

Guest

Just wanted to add to my previous posting that I didn't see anything wrong with this thread....in fact I think that it was a breath of fresh air to hear such a well put together comment from youngrod. Most of the 14 year olds I come accross just want to spray graffiti, get drunk of vandalise things...he put accross a very adult point of view, well done. As a new parent I'd have to agree with DuncBooth5 comments not least because kids don't need a computer to view the distasteful side of human nature....you can hear it in a great many playgrounds at breaktime.

Excuse me while I duck to avoid the hail of lead......

Guest

My own opinion (for what it's worth) is that it is all down to choice. Provided that the subject matter indicates that there is a potential for people to get upset about the content, then fine. It's the same for censorship, except we don't have a rating system. You can choose to or choose not, to read the thread and it's links to other material (which is public domain so we aren't breaking any laws here).

My kids are 5, 6 and 8 and I would not encourage them to read these types of subjects, but as kids are of a naturally inquisitive nature, as a parent I cannot wrap them in cotton wool and keep the realities of life away from them. So if they really want to know... so be it.

So to finish off (whilst I hear you all yawn over another ranting post by yours truly) I would just say that although I have no problem with posts of this nature, how it relates to my expectation that it is to with fishing may be open to criticism.

Perhaps it should have been in a different forum, rather than "General Sea Fishing".